Hi folks!
Here is the second part of my thoughts on combat decks. In the first part I was talking about the importance of having something beside the combat part of your deck. In this part I will focus on a different aspect of combat decks. I always thought that just hitting vampires into torpor isn't really a winning strategy, therefore I was always looking for ways to get rid of vampires for sure.
It's pretty basic mathematics: let's say you can torporize 2 vampires a round and let's also suppose that you may afford to attack your prey only. Your actual prey has in play: 4 weenie or midcap/weenie vampires, 1 Hunting Ground and 1-2 Vessels or Blood Dolls on some of them. You send 2 vampires from these into torpor with 0 blood, then it's your preys turn: he or she will rescue those 2 with the remaining two, then hunt with both of them. In your turn you torporize the other 2, because they have more blood on them. They end up with 0 blood on them (in torpor). It's your prey's turn again: He gains 1 blood from the Hunting Ground and 1 blood from his pool via one of the Vessels/Blood Dolls, then comes the rescue + hunt. In this set-up he or she will loose only 1 pool/turn, while you have to consistently be able to rush him or her twice a round; if your prey plays with combat cards like maneuver or dodge you also have to have the cards to torporize his or her vampires again. Where is this going? Nowhere, believe me. This is a very realistic situation, even more: it is optimistic from your point of view. Many decks play with cards that help them in such a situation or just outrun your rush abilities with 5-7 vamps in play. I can remember a similar situation when I played a "heads-up" for the game win against a rush deck. I played a toreador antitribu tap 'n bleed deck and had six vamps in play. I didn't had a hunting ground, but I could go for Enchant Kindreds or Art Scams to ensure the pool needed to use the blood dolls and rescue my vampires. In the end I've won that game.
So what can we do with combat decks to avoid such situations (and I still wasn't talking about cross table rescuing, one of the most annoying things that can happen to a combat deck)? Pretty easy: if there is nothing to rescue, you'll be fine! Let's take a look at cards that can handle this problem!
Amaranth
This one is maybe my favourite. It's plane and simple: by diablerizing your victim in combat you won't loose any action, nor will you see that vampire again. Of course you can't use this card in any kind of deck, but its worth planning on it. There are several vampires who have a special to avoid being burned by a Blood Hunt (Theo Bell advanced, Ariadne, Tariq, Muaziz, etc.), and there are ways to build a combat deck around the idea of having the vote lock.
Anathema
Another card I love to play. Not only does it burn your victim, it also gives you pool, which is always a great thing. Anathema may be the best choice for a Potence Princes, Nosferatu, or Brujah deck, but also be a good choice for a Toreador gun deck. My experience tells me that you mustn't be greedy with this card. It's better to burn a 4-5 cap vampire for sure than to call it on a biggy and taking the risk of giving 9-10 pool to somebody else.
Graverobbing
Though I don't like this card, it has to be mentioned here. If you manage to steal someone's key vampire with it, it's like a blessing. Especially tupdog decks will want to play this card, as well as pot-dom decks will want to add some copies of them to their deck. It's only theory, because I have to admit, that I never play with Graverobbing, but if I would play with it I'd definitely play with Golconda, too. Seems funny to steal a star vampire and turn it into pool for more tupdogs.
Allies that burn vampires in torpor
Depending on what kind of deck you play, you may find it the easiest solution to play allies that will make the job for you. Such allies are Nephandus, Gregory Winter, Amam the Devourer or Tye Cooper. It's not really a reliable choice, since you won't add too many copies of them to your deck (the exception may be Nephandus), but it's still an option.
Tension in the Ranks + Fame
Ok, this one is obvious. Anybody building a rush deck without Fame should switch to Pokemon. The exception of course being decks that burn vampires in combat. Tension in the Ranks is less used, at least in my meta-game, but is still a must in any combat deck that isn't afraid of going into topor too from time to time.
Torpid Blood
This card may really be of big help. If you have stealth available on your rushes, than it's definitely a good choice, since you can torporize the bigger vamps, making it (too) hard for your prey to rescue them. It forms a little "combo" with Narrow Minds when used in a bruise and bleed deck. Your prey won't have blood for both: rescue and bounce.
I won't try to list every single card that can support your combat deck. Try to be creative and be aware of the fact, that it's worth getting rid of vampires, so you won't have to spend recources on them again. Many other cards (Form of Corruption, Raw Recruit, sufficient aggravated damage ...) can be of help, depending on your deck. Find what best fits your deck!
I am still not done with combat decks, so expect another one of my useless and long articles...
by: Mephistopheles
Here is the second part of my thoughts on combat decks. In the first part I was talking about the importance of having something beside the combat part of your deck. In this part I will focus on a different aspect of combat decks. I always thought that just hitting vampires into torpor isn't really a winning strategy, therefore I was always looking for ways to get rid of vampires for sure.
It's pretty basic mathematics: let's say you can torporize 2 vampires a round and let's also suppose that you may afford to attack your prey only. Your actual prey has in play: 4 weenie or midcap/weenie vampires, 1 Hunting Ground and 1-2 Vessels or Blood Dolls on some of them. You send 2 vampires from these into torpor with 0 blood, then it's your preys turn: he or she will rescue those 2 with the remaining two, then hunt with both of them. In your turn you torporize the other 2, because they have more blood on them. They end up with 0 blood on them (in torpor). It's your prey's turn again: He gains 1 blood from the Hunting Ground and 1 blood from his pool via one of the Vessels/Blood Dolls, then comes the rescue + hunt. In this set-up he or she will loose only 1 pool/turn, while you have to consistently be able to rush him or her twice a round; if your prey plays with combat cards like maneuver or dodge you also have to have the cards to torporize his or her vampires again. Where is this going? Nowhere, believe me. This is a very realistic situation, even more: it is optimistic from your point of view. Many decks play with cards that help them in such a situation or just outrun your rush abilities with 5-7 vamps in play. I can remember a similar situation when I played a "heads-up" for the game win against a rush deck. I played a toreador antitribu tap 'n bleed deck and had six vamps in play. I didn't had a hunting ground, but I could go for Enchant Kindreds or Art Scams to ensure the pool needed to use the blood dolls and rescue my vampires. In the end I've won that game.
So what can we do with combat decks to avoid such situations (and I still wasn't talking about cross table rescuing, one of the most annoying things that can happen to a combat deck)? Pretty easy: if there is nothing to rescue, you'll be fine! Let's take a look at cards that can handle this problem!
Amaranth
This one is maybe my favourite. It's plane and simple: by diablerizing your victim in combat you won't loose any action, nor will you see that vampire again. Of course you can't use this card in any kind of deck, but its worth planning on it. There are several vampires who have a special to avoid being burned by a Blood Hunt (Theo Bell advanced, Ariadne, Tariq, Muaziz, etc.), and there are ways to build a combat deck around the idea of having the vote lock.
Anathema
Another card I love to play. Not only does it burn your victim, it also gives you pool, which is always a great thing. Anathema may be the best choice for a Potence Princes, Nosferatu, or Brujah deck, but also be a good choice for a Toreador gun deck. My experience tells me that you mustn't be greedy with this card. It's better to burn a 4-5 cap vampire for sure than to call it on a biggy and taking the risk of giving 9-10 pool to somebody else.
Graverobbing
Though I don't like this card, it has to be mentioned here. If you manage to steal someone's key vampire with it, it's like a blessing. Especially tupdog decks will want to play this card, as well as pot-dom decks will want to add some copies of them to their deck. It's only theory, because I have to admit, that I never play with Graverobbing, but if I would play with it I'd definitely play with Golconda, too. Seems funny to steal a star vampire and turn it into pool for more tupdogs.
Allies that burn vampires in torpor
Depending on what kind of deck you play, you may find it the easiest solution to play allies that will make the job for you. Such allies are Nephandus, Gregory Winter, Amam the Devourer or Tye Cooper. It's not really a reliable choice, since you won't add too many copies of them to your deck (the exception may be Nephandus), but it's still an option.
Tension in the Ranks + Fame
Ok, this one is obvious. Anybody building a rush deck without Fame should switch to Pokemon. The exception of course being decks that burn vampires in combat. Tension in the Ranks is less used, at least in my meta-game, but is still a must in any combat deck that isn't afraid of going into topor too from time to time.
Torpid Blood
This card may really be of big help. If you have stealth available on your rushes, than it's definitely a good choice, since you can torporize the bigger vamps, making it (too) hard for your prey to rescue them. It forms a little "combo" with Narrow Minds when used in a bruise and bleed deck. Your prey won't have blood for both: rescue and bounce.
I won't try to list every single card that can support your combat deck. Try to be creative and be aware of the fact, that it's worth getting rid of vampires, so you won't have to spend recources on them again. Many other cards (Form of Corruption, Raw Recruit, sufficient aggravated damage ...) can be of help, depending on your deck. Find what best fits your deck!
I am still not done with combat decks, so expect another one of my useless and long articles...
by: Mephistopheles
Who said second part's weren't as good as first ones?
ReplyDeleteI shall put my 2cents:
Against weenies, my combat decks always carry a "Carver's Meat Packing and Storage" from Gehenna (except the Dmitra multirush, I don't know how to make a space to it!), and you make them spend more blood and you also gain!
Torpid Blood is huge, didn't realise it could be that useful, but a deck can't have everything :)
Then Graverobbing is a good option to carry one in your deck, at least in my tremere experience, BoS+Rotsch then Graverobbing, then... coolface.
Anathema... I really want to make a Anathema deck sort of competitive, but until then, I carry one in some of my games when I play Dmitra.
Keep writing! I don't find a debate useless :)
I guess Graverobbing is pretty basic in a Saturday Night Special + DBR deck.
ReplyDeleteAlso, pulled fangs can be good way to keep vampires in torpor. And my new favorite is Hunger Moon. That card really rocks!
I get that burning vampires is sweet. With the exception of Nephandus, combos to pull it off are pretty elaborate.
ReplyDeleteI am impressed with Fleetness and Resist Earths Grasp. Toreador rush/bleed decks benefit a lot from these cards.
Another good way is to simply do enough aggravated to burn the opposing vamp. Protean plus Potence (Hardestadt!) is pretty good for this, but even just target vitals with Ivory Bow or whatever can be enough to finish vamps low on blood.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comments!
ReplyDeleteMatias! I did mention burning vampires due to "sufficient aggrevated damage" in my article. I very good deck I've seen doing this was a Jane Pickman multi-rush, that played Carrion Crows + Aid from Bats + Target Vitals and an Ivory Bow for Celeste Lamontagne.
You forgot Pulled Fangs, which is fantastic when combined with Fame, Tension or Dragonbound
ReplyDelete